Monday, March 1, 2010

*BEST OF DTB #6* Show supplemental for 3/5/10

Condensed version of show (technical glitches edited out).

All of Sandor's arguments refuted

Sandor's argument for this debate:
You keep saying only the roman Catholic church teaches as the bible does. Lets take a Deeper Look Shall We!.....

......- Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
Yes, by all means, let's look at the Scriptures...

Genesis 15:15, Genesis 17:4, 5, 20, Genesis 26:3, 24, Genesis 28:13, Genesis 31:29,Genesis 32:10,Genesis 46:3, Genesis 48:21, Exodus 3:6, 13,15,16, Exodus 4:5, Exodus 13:5, 11, Leviticus 26:45, Numbers 14:23, Deut; 1:8,11,21, 35, Deut 4:1, 31, 37, Deut 6:3, 10,18,23, Deut 7:8, 12, 13, Deut 8:1, 3, 16, 18, Deut 9:5, Deut 10:11, 15, Deut 11:19, 21, Deut 12:1, Deut 13:7, 18, Deut 19:8, 14, Deut 26:3, 7, 15, Deut 27:3, Deut 28: 11, 36, 64, Deut 29:12, 24, Deut 30: 5, 9, 20, Deut 31:7, 16, 20, 21, Joshua 1:6, Joshua 5:6, Joshua 18:3, Joshua 21:43, 44, Joshua 22:28, Joshua 24:3, 6, 17, Judges 2:1, 12, Judges 3:4, Judges 6:13, Judges 18:19**, 1 Samuel 12:6, 7, 8, 1 Kings 8:21, 24, 34, 40, 48, 53, 57, 58, 1 Kings 9:9, 1 Kings 14:15, 1 Kings 22:51, 2 Kings 12:22, 2 Kings 14:3, 2 Kings 17:13, 15, 2 Kings 20:5, 2 Kings 21:8, 15, 22, 1 Chronicles 12:18, 1 Chronicles 29:18, 20, 2 Chronicles 6:25, 31, 38, 2 Chronicles 7:22, 2 Chronicles 11:16, 2 Chronicles 13:12, 18, 2 Chronicles 14:3, 2 Chronicles 15:12, 2 Chronicles 19:4, 2 Chronicles 20:6, 33, 2 Chronicles 21:10, 2 Chronicles 24:18, 24, 2 Chronicles 28:1, 6, 9, 25, 2 Chronicles 29:5, 2 Chronicles 30:19, 22, 2 Chronicles 33:8, 12, 2 Chronicles 34:3, 32, 33, 2 Chronicles 36:15, Ezra 7:27, Ezra 8:28, Ezra 10:11, Proverbs 22:28, Isaiah 38:5, Isaiah 51:2, Isaiah 58:14, Jeremiah 7:7, 14, 22, 25, Jeremiah 11:4, 5, 7, Jeremiah 16:15, Jeremiah 17:22, Jeremiah 30:3, Jeremiah 34:14, Jeremiah 35:15, Jeremiah 44:10, Ezekiel 20:42, Ezekiel 36:28, Ezekiel 37:25, Ezekiel 47:14, Daniel 2:23, Daniel 3:28, 52, Daniel 9:6, Micah 7:20, Zechariah 1:5, Matthew 3:9, Mark 11:10, Luke 1:32, Luke 1:55, Luke 1:72, Luke 1:73, Luke 3:8, Luke 16:24, 27,30, John 4:12, John 8:39*, John 8:53, John 8:56**, Acts 4:25, Acts 7:32**, Acts 22:1, Romans 4:11, 12, 16, 17, 18, Romans 9:10, 1 Corinthians 4:15**, 1 Timothy 5:1, Philemon 1:10, Hebrews 8:9, James 2:21

Listed above are almost 200 verses of Scripture lifted from among the 66 books of the Bible Catholics and Protestants agree on.

Every single one of these verses uses the word 'father' in explicitly the context that my opponent claims Matthew 23:9 forbids.

In selecting verses, I only included verses that;
  • Appear in the 66 books Catholics and Protestants agree on.
  • Specifically addressed religious leaders that the Bible holds up as examples of those doing God's will.
  • Specifically excluded the use of the term 'father' in a human, paternal sense, such as 'honor your father and mother' or 'Soloman's father David'.

In other words, I only chose verses that used exactly the context in which Sandor claims the title father cannot be used. I found more than 190 such examples.

Here are a few of the most impressive to me.

Exodus 3:15 God spoke further to Moses, "Thus shall you say to
the Israelites: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of
Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to
"This is my name forever;
this is my title for all generations.

Judges 18:19 They said to him, "Be still: put your hand over your mouth. Come with us and be our father and priest. Is it better for you to be priest for the family of one man or to be priest for a tribe and a clan in Israel?"
John 8:39 They answered and said to him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works of Abraham.
John 8:56 (Jesus' words) Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it * and was glad.

Acts 7:32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob.' Then Moses, trembling, did not dare to look at it.

1 Corinthians 4:15 Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Sandor refutes himself:

So when he says "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Spiritual Father, and he is in heaven"! See what he says, DO NOT CALL ANYONE FATHER (He didn't says except for Catholic Priests or even just Priests in general, he meant EVERYONE!, what part of that dont you get). Obviously he did not mean not to call your biological Father your Father for we are created in the image of man therefore our Biological image of him is the Traditional continuation of us in his image, he more than obviously meant in the spiritual sense there is only one Father.
Literal Scriptures "Bible believers" reject:

John 6:48 I am the bread of life.
6:49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
6:50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
6:52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
6:53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
6:54 Whoever eats * my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
6:55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
6:56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
6:57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Romans 2:5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
2:6 who will repay everyone according to his works:*
2:7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
2:8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness

James 2:24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

In addition to these verses, that should be taken literally, there are dozens that it would be absurd to take literally.

Among them:
Luke 14:26 "If any one comes to me without hating his father * and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

MT 8:22 But Jesus answered him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead."

MT 23:24
Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!

MT 19:24
Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

MT 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.

RV 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on land or sea or against any tree. (the earth is round)

Hyperbole is a Biblical literary form.

Mandating of clerical dress;

Exodus 28:28:2 For the glorious adornment of your brother Aaron you shall have sacred vestments made.
28:3 Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as my priest.
28:4 These are the vestments they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter and a sash. In making these sacred vestments which your brother Aaron and his sons are to wear in serving as my priests,
28:5 they shall use gold, violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen.

28:6 * "The ephod they shall make of gold thread and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, embroidered on cloth of fine linen twined.
28:7 It shall have a pair of shoulder straps joined to its two upper ends.
28:8 The embroidered belt of the ephod shall extend out from it and, like it, be made of gold thread, of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, and of fine linen twined.
28:9 "Get two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel:
28:10 six of their names on one stone, and the other six on the other stone, in the order of their birth.
28:11 As a gem-cutter engraves a seal, so shall you have the two stones engraved with the names of the sons of Israel and then mounted in gold filigree work.
28:12 Set these two stones on the shoulder straps of the ephod as memorial stones of the sons of Israel. Thus Aaron shall bear their names on his shoulders as a reminder before the LORD.
28:13 Make filigree rosettes of gold,
28:14 as well as two chains of pure gold, twisted like cords, and fasten the cordlike chains to the filigree rosettes.
28:15 * "The breastpiece of decision you shall also have made, embroidered like the ephod with gold thread and violet, purple and scarlet yarn on cloth of fine linen twined.
28:16 It is to be square when folded double, a span high and a span wide.
28:17 * On it you shall mount four rows of precious stones: in the first row, a carnelian, a topaz and an emerald;
28:18 in the second row, a garnet, a sapphire and a beryl;
28:19 in the third row, a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst;
28:20 in the fourth row, a chrysolite, an onyx and a jasper. These stones are to be mounted in gold filigree work,
28:21 twelve of them to match the names of the sons of Israel, each stone engraved like a seal with the name of one of the twelve tribes.
28:22 "When the chains of pure gold, twisted like cords, have been made for the breastpiece,
28:23 you shall then make two rings of gold for it and fasten them to the two upper ends of the breastpiece.
28:24 The gold cords are then to be fastened to the two rings at the upper ends of the breastpiece,
28:25 the other two ends of the cords being fastened in front to the two filigree rosettes which are attached to the shoulder straps of the ephod.
28:26 Make two other rings of gold and put them on the two lower ends of the breastpiece, on its edge that faces the ephod.
28:27 Then make two more rings of gold and fasten them to the bottom of the shoulder straps next to where they join the ephod in front, just above its embroidered belt.
28:28 Violet ribbons shall bind the rings of the breastpiece to the rings of the ephod, so that the breastpiece will stay right above the embroidered belt of the ephod and not swing loose from it.
28:29 "Whenever Aaron enters the sanctuary, he will thus bear the names of the sons of Israel on the breastpiece of decision over his heart as a constant reminder before the LORD.
28:30 * In this breastpiece of decision you shall put the Urim and Thummim, that they may be over Aaron's heart whenever he enters the presence of the LORD. Thus he shall always bear the decisions for the Israelites over his heart in the LORD'S presence.

28:31 "The robe of the ephod you shall make entirely of violet material.
28:32 It shall have an opening for the head in the center, and around this opening there shall be a selvage, woven as at the opening of a shirt, to keep it from being torn.
28:33 All around the hem at the bottom you shall make pomegranates, woven of violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen twined, with gold bells between them;
28:34 first a gold bell, then a pomegranate, and thus alternating all around the hem of the robe.
28:35 Aaron shall wear it when ministering, that its tinkling may be heard as he enters and leaves the LORD'S presence in the sanctuary; else he will die.
28:36 "You shall also make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it, as on a seal engraving, 'Sacred to the LORD.'
28:37 This plate is to be tied over the miter with a violet ribbon in such a way that it rests on the front of the miter,
28:38 over Aaron's forehead. Since Aaron bears whatever guilt the Israelites may incur in consecrating any of their sacred gifts, this plate must always be over his forehead, so that they may find favor with the LORD.
28:39 "The tunic of fine linen shall be brocaded. The miter shall be made of fine linen. The sash shall be of variegated work.
28:40 "Likewise, for the glorious adornment of Aaron's sons you shall have tunics and sashes and turbans made.
28:41 * With these you shall clothe your brother Aaron and his sons. Anoint and ordain them, consecrating them as my priests.
28:42 You must also make linen drawers for them, to cover their naked flesh from their loins to their thighs.
28:43 Aaron and his sons shall wear them whenever they go into the meeting tent or approach the altar to minister in the sanctuary, lest they incur guilt and die. This shall be a perpetual ordinance for him and for his descendants.

Exodus 29:29:1 "This is the rite you shall perform in consecrating them as my priests. Procure a young bull and two unblemished rams.
29:2 With fine wheat flour make unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers spread with oil,
29:3 and put them in a basket. Take the basket of them along with the bullock and the two rams.
29:4 Aaron and his sons you shall also bring to the entrance of the meeting tent, and there wash them with water.
29:5 Take the vestments and clothe Aaron with the tunic, the robe of the ephod, the ephod itself, and the breastpiece, fastening the embroidered belt of the ephod around him.
29:6 Put the miter on his head, the sacred diadem on the miter.

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