Alleged Idolatry
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
In the previous 6 debates with George Lujack, we have held our show notes close to the vest until broadcast time.
However, for this debate, we are putting all our cards on the table well in advance.. All materials were published days before this debate and even made available to our opponent himself. In short, we are telling George exactly where we are going to run and daring him try to counter it.
Since day 1, he has unabashedly claimed that the Catholic Church worships and idolizes Mary as a goddess. Those are not my words, they are his. The assertion is absurd and, in making it, he reduces his own credibility to zero and appears much more a desperate, irrational polemicist than a serious debater. In short, George is breaking the commandment of God by bearing false witness against his Catholic neighbors. It really is just that simple.
I will come right out and say openly that it is my view that George doesn't believe this foolish nonsense any more than I do and that he probably understands that no Catholic will ever really take him seriously as long as he spouts such mush.
On the chance that George really does believe that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints, the Pope, Statues and Leprechauns as assorted Idols and gods and goddesses, he will be afforded every generous opportunity to prove it. He will also be pressed hard to put up or shut up on this ridiculous charge.
So, here and now, I will not set any burden of proof to be met, I will only explain in detail the bar George has set for himself, with his own words, and then I will sip coffee while his own nutty polemic comes crashing down on his own head.
Remember, I will do nothing here but use George's own ridiculous assertions against him. That he is hoisted by his own petard, don't blame me.
First, we will start with a vocabulary lesson, starting with the word worship.
wor·ship
[wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor·shiped, wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) wor·shipped, wor·ship·ping.
noun
1.
2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3.
adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5.
( initial capital letter ) British . a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her ).
When I speak of Worship, I am holding to the first and second definitions because they are literal and I am not British. Catholics hold this worship as due God alone. George, therefore, must prove that Catholics view Mary as Divine, since He has already claimed that.
The British use, often extracted from the Catholic encyclopedia, is of no value here because I speak American English and so does George, referring to a Judge as your honor, not your worship as our British counterparts do. Attempting to juxtapose British English on me would be dishonest to the extreme. I hope he doesn't even try it.
Secondly, Idol.
i·dol
[ahyd-l] Show IPA
2.
Bible .
a.
an image of a deity other than God.
b.
the deity itself.
3.
any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion: Madame Curie had been her childhood idol.
4.
a mere image or semblance of something, visible but without substance, as a phantom.
Once again, George has already shown his hand. Therefore, he must prove that Catholics view Mary as a material Diety, worthy of worship. Not a pure human. He must prove that we hold her to be a goddess.
Thirdly, goddess.
god·dess
[god-is] Show IPA
noun
1.
a female god or deity.
2.
a woman of extraordinary beauty and charm.
3.
a greatly admired or adored woman.
Since definitions 2 and 3 are of slang and hyperbolic use, George must prove definition #1. A LITERAL female god.
Since definitions 2 and 3 are of slang and hyperbolic use, George must prove definition #1. A LITERAL female god.
If George can prove that we hold Mary to be a Divine being, possessing the attributes of Divinity, he wins. To do this, he must show that Catholics hold her to be eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. That means she is uncreated and has no limits to her knowledge, presence and power.
Also, since the Bible itself shows that worship requires a sacrifice, please show where Catholics offer Sacrifices to Mary. One of the proof-texts he will obviously use is Jeremiah 44, referring to the cult of Ishtar, the so-called Queen of Heaven. This is wonderful. I look forward, with great eagerness, for George to demonstrate how Catholics gather wood for fires, offering cake and drink libation sacrifices to Mary. As if!
Produce one Encyclical, Council document or verse from the catechism that shows that, as a Catholic, I am to Adore and Worship Mary as a Divine being, that I am to offer sacrifices to her and raise her to equality with God.
Do all this, or concede the argument up front.
Since George has already stated that Catholics have adored, idolitrized and worshiped Mary as a goddess, he cannot even assert unintentional worship, as if that were possible.
We opened this show with audio of clips of George's own words and the show notes begin with a screenshot of George claiming in facebook that he can prove Catholics make Mary a goddess.. By his own words he is condemned. He has painted himself into this corner and was very foolish to do so.
Accusing Catholics of worshiping Mary and the Saints is among the ugliest slander and vitriolic, gutter polemics. It is usually offered in 2 equally absurd variations-
- That Catholics somehow unintentionally or unknowingly worship Mary, the saints etc.
- That Catholics openly consent to the worship of Mary, the saints etc., then lie about doing so.
At least the first can be excused as ignorance.
George openly accuses Catholics of elevating Mary and the saints to the level of gods. In doing so, he mortally wounds any possible chance of meeting his own burden of proof.
By the standard George has set, he must prove that Catholics;
- Fully consent, mind, body, heart and soul, to the elevation of Mary and other saints to the level of diety.
- Fully consent to the deception of said worship
George would have to be mentally unstable to truly believe he can demonstrate this, so I have to assume he is just blinded by irrational, anti-catholic hate. No other explanation makes sense.
In view of this, George cannot offer anything in his opening statement- or any of his arguments- that will be even remotely credible....
....with the possible exception of an apology for breaking one of the ten commandments and smearing his neighbors.
Briefly, I'll address the points George will surely make in the desperate attempt to buttress this disgusting slander. He will start by accusing us of violating the second commandment (which is actually part of the first) in making unto ourselves graven images of worship. As if! Remember that the Israelites consented to the worship of the golden calf and other false gods.
God's word from Exodus 32;
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!'"I have a small statuette I won, of the Holy family. I can assure you that it is made of plaster and should I be unfortunate enough to drop it, it will probably break. I have never once prostrated myself before it, nor have I offered sacrifices to it. It is no more a god to me than the statues of angels Moses made, at God's command, in the Temple and on the Ark of the Covenant. It does not possess any of the attributes of humanity much less divinity.
Next, he will assert that prayer is worship. Hogwash. To pray means to ask, nothing more. nowhere in the Bible is prayer called worship. This is indefensible nonsense.
Quoting his own King James Bible, 1st Kings, chapter 2;
16 And now I ask one petition of thee, deny me not. And she said unto him, Say on.In this instance, prayer is not called worship. Nor is prayer called worship in any of the 188 instances of the word worship in the King James Bible.
17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.
18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.
19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and
she sat on his right hand.
20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.
Not only do Adonijah and Bathsheba both use the word pray as what it means- to petition- but the King- Solomon- actually gives a bow of respect to his mother, the Queen Mother and places her on a throne to his right.
Luke chapter 1 tells us that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom. This makes Mary the Queen Mother, not as a goddess, but as her rightful position in the King's court. To deny this is to deny scripture.
Following this, George will doubtless assert that the Angels and Saints cannot hear our prayers. This, once again, is a direct contradiction to Scripture. In the book of Revelation we see both Angels and Saints receiving our prayers and passing them on to God.... Angels in chapter 8, Saints in chapter 5.
I am positive George will quote Colossians 2 regarding the worship of angels, trying to make a hallow juxtaposition against Catholics. He will offer nothing but implication linking this to Catholics.
Yet, if you are still convinced that those in heaven cannot hear petitions, consider this exchange straight from the 16th chapter of Luke's gospel;
23And in hades lifting up his eyes, being in torments, he sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he crying out said, Father Abraham, have compassion on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Child, recollect that *thou* hast fully received thy good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted here, and *thou* art in suffering.
The accusation that Catholics worship Mary, or anyone else but God Almighty is not merely false but the worst kind of polemic garbage and bile. To even attempt to make it plausible requires George and those of like mind to invent a definition of worship wholly alien to the Bible.
- Prove to me that you worship Christ. List for me all the things one must believe about the person of Jesus to properly be called a worshiper of Him. Then, using the same standard, prove that I am a worshiper of Mary.
- Each time I, as a Catholic, pray the "Hail Mary", I echo the words of Scripture "Blessed are you among women". Here, I expressly assent to her humanity and that she is blessed no further than that. Further, I ask her to pray for me. If I saw Mary as a goddess, please explain why I would call her human and ask her to pray for me.
- George, you claim that prayer equals worship, yet not one of the 188 appearances of the word worship in the King James Bible say such a thing. In fact, the word pray appears twice in 1st Kings Chapter 2 in a way expressly showing non-worshipful petition. How is it that you can insist on a definition of worship that has no Biblical support whatsoever?
- Revelation 11:19 to 12:17 shows a woman who is called the Ark of the Covenant, who is in heaven, who has a physical body, who has a crown on her head, showing queen-ship, who gave birth to the child called up to God's throne who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron, who is the mother of all Christians. This is not what I say, this is what the Bible says. Who else could this woman possibly be other than Mary?
- The Queen Mother (1 Kings 15:13, 2 Chronicles 15:16, Jeremiah 13:18, 22:10, 29:2 ) was the mother of the King in the davidic kingdom. Luke 1:32 tells us that Jesus fulfills the throne of the Kingdom of David. Under this Kingdom, Mary IS the Queen Mother. How can you seriously deny this?
Here are some points that I think are likely to be raised during the course of this debate. The argument will be in BLUE with my Response in GOLD.
Argument: If Catholics do not worship Mary, why do they call her Theotokos- the Mother of God? Is this not putting her above God?
Answer: Not at all. To call Mary the Mother of God is only to confirm what Scripture says about her. Elizabeth, in Luke 1 says what is it to me that the Mother of My Lord should come to me. 'My Lord' is translated from the Greek Kyrios which is equivalent to the Hebrew Adonai, a name used for God. To call Mary the Mother of God, is simply confirming the Biblical reality that is the Incarnation.
It is a simple logical syllogism. Jesus is God, Mary is His Mother, therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.
Argument: Catholics call Mary a co-redemtrix and co-mediatrix. The Bible clearly says that there is only one mediator between God and man. Are you not elevating Mary to the level of God?
Answer: You are comparing apples to oranges. A Redeemer and a co-redemptrix are two totally different things. Likewise, a co-mediatrix and a mediator between God and Man are not even close to the same thing.
Argument: Catholics claim that Mary has appeared all over the world. At Fatima, Catholics claim that Mary said: The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. Isn't this elevating Mary to a level of Savior?Answer: First of all, no Catholic is bound to believing in private revelations. However, Jesus did say that there would be signs by which many would believe and the documented miraculous events at places like Lourdes and Fatima are undeniable. At the heart of Mary's statement- properly context-ed, is one of the most fundamental divisions between Catholics and Protestants, the notion of intercessory prayer. Yet, Mary never claims to be a Savior, she claims to be an Advocate. In the Rosary are the Apostles Creed and the Our Father as well as the Hail Mary. Mary's entire message at Fatima is one of prayer, fasting and penance and returning to her Son. Mary is offering her assistance in leading souls to her son. Her messages at these events always point to Jesus. True, one may reject these events as inauthentic if they so chose but to call them worship is quite a stretch.
Argument: Doesn't the Bible warn against believing signs and wonders?
2 Corinthians 11:14 14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an
angel of light.
Revelation 13: 11: Then I saw another beast which rose out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon.
12: It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its
inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed.
13: It works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men;
14: and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived;
12: It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its
inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed.
13: It works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men;
14: and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived;
Answer: Signs and wonders are not at all what is being condemned here, unbelief and apostasy are what is being condemned.
Let's take the quotes one by one. The quote in Matthew 16 did not mean Jesus didn't perform any signs in the Gospels, we know better than that. In fact, just 5 verses later, Jesus reminds the disciples of the miracle of the fish and loaves. Jesus did not condemn the signs themselves, he condemned the evil and adulterous pharisees who sought to put him to the test because of their lack of belief.
In 2 Corinthians, we are warned that Satan disguises himself as a being of light. There would be no need for him to do this if it were not for the fact that actual beings of light have appeared to people.
It is the same with the proof text from Revelation 13 . When the anti-christ brings fire down from heaven, he is merely doing a cheap imitation of what Elijah did in 2 Kings.
It is nonsense to suggest that the Bible tells us to unilaterally reject all miracles. Both the Prophet Joel and Peter told us that in the last days young men would see visions and old men would dream dreams. The key is knowing how to discern.
1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see
whether they are from God, because many false
prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God : every spirit
that confesses that Jesus Christ
has come in the flesh is from God ;
3 and every spirit that does not
confess Jesus is not from God ;
this is the spirit of the antichrist,
It may well be noted that every approved apparition of Mary passes this Biblical test.
The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, "honour"; from worth, meaning "value", "dignity", "price", and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.There are several degrees of this worship:
- if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
- When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
- As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).
The show notes to this debate are at http://tinyurl.com/7x7punu. Email as at email@deepertruthblog.com with comments or questions.
However, when George actually accuses me of fashioning Mary into a goddess, I can truly do nothing but roll my eyes and go on to the next topic. This is one debate our opponent simply made too easy for us, by grossly overreaching on his assertion.
This accusation is not merely false but is nothing more than bitter, hyper-polemic drivel. The Mary goddess canard is the invention of rabid anti-Catholics with over-active imaginations and too much time on their hands. There has never been any evidence produced whatsoever to support such idiot, paranoid nonsense.
George is too obsessed with paganism, druidism and babylonianism, none of which have anything to do with Catholicism whatsoever. George's entire case is a supposition, inside a juxtaposition, wrapped around a paranoid, conspiratorial fabrication.
As a Catholic, I could not give two flips if the Babylonians had a goddess, two goddesses or two legions of goddesses and 47 hobgoblins with snakes in their hair. That has squat to do with me and his lame assertions to the contrary are so much hyperventilated smoke. In short, if George truly believes that I worship Mary as a goddess then what can I say but that I feel sorry for him?
This is exactly the kind of irrational lack of charity that causes divisions rather than heal them because George wants to believe the lie...he needs to believe the lie. It is not enough that he believe that Catholics are wrong, he needs to believe they are evil and that is really a shame.
It is that irrational hatred that made this debate so easy because it caused George to lose his center and strike out irrationally.
The accusation that Catholics worship Mary is false, irrational polemics based in nothing but hate. It is an anti-catholic invention totally lacking in any substance or logic and George should be ashamed of himself for suggesting something so asinine. As far as debate goes, I hope George has learned a valuable lesson. He spent all his credibility capital right here by claiming he could prove about me what no man could possibly prove about another... what I believe.
I hope he will be more rational going forward, he really went off the reservation this time.
Home page
DTB facebook Page
You Tube
Blog Talk Radio Show
No comments:
Post a Comment