Deeper Truth Blog: Agreement in principle on 8 debate topics

Monday, July 16, 2012

Agreement in principle on 8 debate topics

We are moving rapidly towards finalizing a debate package of 8 debates with an informed protestant from the northeast.

The following are the propositions to be debated. Those in Blue are debates in which DTB will argue in the affirmative;

1) Christians are saved by faith alone
2) Mary is a co-redemptrix, co-mediatrix and advocate
3) Man is justified by imputed Righteousness
4) Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist
5) The Bible is the sole rule of faith
6) Mary is the Queen of Heaven
7) Mary is the Ark of the Covenant
8) The Sacraments and works are necessary for salvation

Right now, it appears that the debates will all take place on Sunday evenings. I will debate 4 and Donald will debate 4, probably chosen randomly.

The debates will follow this format.

Introductions
Affirmative opening statement up to 10 minutes
Rebuttal up to 5 minutes
BREAK
Refutive opening statement
Rebuttal
BREAK
Affirmative question #1
Answer up to 2 minutes
Optional Rebut up to 1 min
Refutive question #1
Answer
Optional Rebut
Repeat through 4 questions each
BREAK
Affirmative closing up to 3 min
Refutive closing up to 3 min
Audience questions (optional)

This person seems to be much more level-headed and knowledgeable than some protestants we know but that isn't really a high bar to clear. We are looking forward to finalizing this!

Debate rules are the basics- no ad homs, no talkover and no persistent evasion. We are still searching for a moderator that will fairly enforce these rules. We will find it.

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The Pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15)

The purpose of Deeper Truth is to provide a defense for the one fully true church of Christ. It is not designed to attack or hurt others.

We will speak boldly. We will not whitewash the truth.

Yes, we do believe that there is only 1 truth and the only place on earth where it can be found whole, complete, and uncorrupted is the Roman Catholic Church. Yes, we do feel that we can prove that case.

We can prove it historically, supernaturally, logically, practically and Biblically. And we will, make no mistake about that.

We believe that science and observation and reason are sufficient proofs of the existence of God. We also believe that reason and logic alone are sufficient causes for any human being to suspect that that God would have revealed Himself to us in some fashion. Further, we believe that He has and the historical, practical and supernatural proofs are beyond overwhelming that God has revealed, and continues to reveal, His will to us exclusively through the Roman Catholic Church, which He founded when He lived among us in the historical person of Jesus Christ.

We believe that anyone who has totally given Himself to the whole and objective search for truth cannot help but be drawn towards the light of what the Apostle Paul called the Pillar and Foundation of all truth, that is the Catholic Church.
A mere 77 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, when some of the young witnesses would still have been alive, St. Ignatius of Antioch said; “Where Christ is, there is His Catholic Church”.

Truer words were never spoken.

For those of you chomping at the bit to discuss (or dare you dream, refute) Catholic teaching, don’t worry, you will get your chance.

Here is what constitutes debate to me. You do not ignore my questions or evidences and simply move on to more questions and or accusations. You do not make accusations, purported as factual, without sufficient original evidence.

That means that you do not make an accusation about what Catholics believe, do or have done or will do without providing an original, verifiable source that can be instantly accessed by any listener of the program.

If you characterize debate as an endless stream of unsupported accusations, you have come to the wrong place.

Here are some examples of what would constitute proof;

If you charge, as fact, that Catholics believe a particular thing, I will expect you to provide a link to an official Catholic source, citing it as a defined doctrine. Sources could include the Catechism of the Catholic Church or a document from a council. Links to anti- Catholic or non-Catholic sources that quote teachings out of context are insufficient.

I will gladly debate you on anything the Catholic Church actually has defined and teaches but I won’t waste my time arguing about what Dave Hunt or Jack Chick falsely claims that we teach.

If you charge, as purported fact, that a belief the church actually does have violates scripture or Christian teaching in some way, be prepared to not only support your arguments but to contest mine. I will debate via Scripture, history, tradition, practicality and logic. If you insist that the debate can only be on Scripture alone because you allege that Scripture is the only authority, I will insist that you provide scripture explicitly establishing that only the written word of God, as contained in a specific canon of books, can be accepted to the exclusion of all else.

Good luck.

If you charge, for example, that Catholic sexual abuse proves that the Catholic church cannot be the true church of God, I will expect you to provide empirical evidence that the rate of sexual abuse among Catholic priests is higher than ministers of other faiths or of the public at large.

The purpose of this show is to show you the truth. I will do so by basis of empirical evidence. If you truly want to see the truth, I can provide it. If you are simply unwilling to see the truth, I cannot help you.

That being said, we know that there are good people in all faiths and that many people of good will are genuinely confused about what Catholics believe and why they believe it.

I will start by giving you 30 basic precepts of what Catholics believe, as a foundation for us to build on. I will then explain exactly how this show will work.

1. We believe that by nature, science and reason alone, God has put sufficient light in every man to realize that the formation and expansion of life cannot possibly be by chance or random action. We believe that science, observation and simple human reason makes it impossible for anyone to truly doubt the existence of an intelligent designer. We believe that anyone who denies such a basic and undeniable fact, does so by force of pride or rebellion, not by force of intellect.

2. We believe that, hard-wired, by the creator, into every human being is a basic knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil. Man can choose to suppress this knowledge but he that will cause an intrinsic rebellion within him. Among this basic knowledge is the truth that murder, stealing, lying, violence, rape and homosexuality are disordered and objectively evil. Again, we believe anyone denying this knowledge isn’t doing so out of an intellectually arrived at position but out of rebellion or pain or pride. This knowledge is as basic as the knowledge that we need to breath, eat, drink, sleep, avoid pain and fight or flee danger. It is instinctive.

3. We believe that each person has in him an irresistible longing for God that battles against an unruly and unreasonable concupiscence. Concupiscence is man’s innate selfish desire. We Catholics define this concupiscence as original sin. Fully giving oneself over to the longing for God will lead to salvation. The most perfect completion of this being in the Catholic Church. A lifetime spent resisting this urge for God, in exchange for the longings of the flesh will lead to a lifetime of misery and-eventually- to an eternity of unimaginable suffering.

4. We believe this God has revealed Himself to us in very specific ways and through very specific people. These people include Prophets, Saints, Apostles and Old Testament Kings. The ways include Miracles and Signs, Sacred Scripture, public and private revelation, sacred tradition and the teachers He has appointed throughout the ages from Abraham to the current Magisterium of today’s Roman Catholic Church.

5. Because of #4, We believe anyone who claims to speak for God has an obligation to demonstrate credentials. We can do so in ways that no other church or religious entity on earth could even dare to claim.

6. We believe this God has been revealed as a singular God who exists in 3 persons, the second of which also took on humanity. We believe this one triune God and only this one triune God is worthy of worship. Anyone who tells you that Catholics worship anyone but the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is lying to you. It’s just that simple.

7. We believe that this God gave us a moral law that will never pass away and that every single person will face the judgment of God based on the moral law.

8. We believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Mosaic law.

9. We believe that Jesus Christ, by His life, suffering, death and Resurrection redeemed the world.

10. We believe the graces secured at Calvary are sufficient for the removal of all sin.

11. We believe that salvation is by Christ alone.

12. We believe that salvation is by grace alone.

13. We believe that man must participate in his own salvation and that no man or woman has ever been saved, or ever will be saved by faith alone. That the Bible clearly refutes the doctrine of Salvation by Faith alone is clear almost to the point of excess. Anybody who tells you that man is saved by faith alone is simply repeating a man-made lie, whether or not they may actually believe it.

14. We believe that Jesus Christ created a church that is the Pillar and Foundation of all truth, just as the Bible states. That we have an infallible Bible (and we do) is only because an infallible church gave it to us. That church-and only that Church- is fully and completely entrusted by God with the Scriptures and the Truths of Religion. Everyone else is guessing, to greater or less success, all falling short of the fullness of the truth of Catholicism. In fact…..

15. We believe that, in truth, there is only one true church. Catholic means Universal and we affirm that every single baptized Christian is a member-knowing or unknowing, willing or unwilling- of the Catholic Church and accountable, to the extent of the light of faith within them, to her teachings.

16. We affirm the infallibility and inspiration of Scripture and that all Scripture is useful for reproof, teaching and training in holiness. Nevertheless, we reject the notion of Sola Scriptura and hold the notion of practical sufficiency and the SELF interpretation of Scripture to be self-refuting, untenable nonsense.

17. We hold the teaching authority of the Church, the Sacred tradition of the fathers, and Holy Scripture to all be necessary parts of the Church.

18. We do not believe that any of the members of the Catholic Church are Impeccable, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Divine, Eternal or, in any way, shape, manner or form equal with God. This includes past, present and future members of the Catholic Church. We believe that all members of the Church had to be saved from the stain of original sin by God’s Sanctifying Grace.

19. We believe that Mary was saved by Sanctifying grace from her Mother’s womb, as was John the Baptist. We believe we can prove this scripturally.

20. We do not believe that Mary is God. Anyone who tells you that Catholics worship Mary is a liar. We do believe that She is the MOTHER of God and to deny this is to deny the Incarnation. We also believe that She fulfills the Biblical roles of the Queen Mother, The Ark of the Covenant, the Mother of Christians, the Woman clothed with the Sun and a co-mediatrix, co-redemtrix and advocate that in no manner contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5.

21. We believe that Jesus gave the Catholic clergy the power to anoint, to bind and loose, to preach and interpret Scripture and to forgive sins.

22. We believe that not one soul is saved by any other name than Jesus, even those saved who never heard His name.

23. We believe that not one soul that is saved is not saved by the merits Jesus gives through His Catholic Church, even those who don’t come to fully understand and accept it.

24. We believe that Jesus meant what He said in the 6th chapter of John’s Gospel and that each consecrated host contains the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

25. We believe that only the full canon of Scripture as defined by the Catholic Church, 73 books, constitutes a complete Bible and only one carrying an Imprimatur is free from doctrinal error.

26. We reject the doctrine of the Rapture and believe that Christians will have to endure the great tribulation.

27. We reject a strictly futurist view of books like John’s Revelation.
The prophecies concerning the great harlot in Revelation 17-18, for instance, refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

28. We reject the assertion that the Israel of today’s world is the Israel of Scripture and find the assertion absurd and untenable. The Church is the new Israel. The Jewish Israel of Scripture is gone, dead, kaput…no more. There is no more temple and will never be. There are no more prophets nor will ever be, no more sacrifice, no more kings, no more Jerusalem. The city is Babylon and a Spiritual Sodom. Revelation 11:8.

29. We reject the doctrine that only Catholics can be saved. God will save who He will. That someone cannot reach the fullness of truth, through their honest efforts, will not be held against him. Those who knowingly reject the truth will perish in their sin and be damned. God will judge all by their works- PERIOD.

30. We do not believe that lying in defense of one’s beliefs, as anti-catholics do, is a virtue but a violation of the commandments of God.

We trust that these subjects and more will make for lively, spirited and- we hope- civil debate.

Remember the word I spoke to you, 'No slave is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
~ John 15:20

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(17) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be;

90

by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.(2) even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord's might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast.(1) But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid.

~Saint Ignatius of Antioch, letter to the Smyrnaeans, chapter VIII (AD 110)

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Monday, July 16, 2012

Agreement in principle on 8 debate topics

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